I need some advice

[freiman]

folks,

I have been asked by a buddy for help with some LARP armor. My buddy (a lady) is a master leather worker, and she can do a good job.

The problem is, this is for a LARP,, using foam weapons, and she is a full contact SCA armorer and fighter. She feels like her professional reputation and her future working with a large and lucrative market is at stake. She really wants to get this right. There are things that are so radically different from what she has done that she is worried.

For instance, LARP fighting is so incredibly fast that she is worried about using fastening techniques that wont work. She wants to produce a really, really good product for the customer. She makes her living on her rep, and she is worried that venturing into strange territory will hurt her rep.

For another, she is used to rebate and full contact rattan fighting that uses a minumum of 16 oz (quarter inch) leather, usually in thick, multiple layers, and the customer says that 8 ounce (eighth inch) will do fine. This is essentially garment leather.

Does the armor need to be wax or water hardened for a LARP? Is that important?

Where can we go for advice? Who can tell us what she needs to know? She's really good, but making a mistake because she doesn't know the rules might cost her big time.

Help me, Geebas Wan, you're my only hope.

f

[Evandril]

If you look at the LARPing pics, you'll see people fighting in street clothing, or less, so I'd think garment leather would be plenty. Have her check with her client, but I'd say the armor will be decortative, more than practicle, so she can cut loose, and design something totally unsuited for 'real' fighting.

[Ruestir]

Does she have a website?

[Duncan]

In general, the LARP market values low price and looks over functionality or authenticity. Armor is typically a luxury in most LARP systems. You can generally get by pretty easily without it, so most people aren't willing to pay huge fortunes for even the best kind of armor. Since the combat is so low impact the armor doesn't really have to function perfectly as armor. Lightweight materials and gaps in coverage are not that big of a deal, especially if they help keep the cost down, improve the look and make it more comfortable to wear.

In my experience most people involved in either SCA style fighting or LARP style fighting understand there are significant differences between the two, and recognize that equipment for one may not suit the other. One style requires real honest to goodness functioning armor, and for the other armor is really just another form of costuming. I would not be overly concerned that creating and marketing armor specifically as LARP armor would hurt my reputation as an SCA style armor crafter.

[Crazeyal]

Most longtime players invest in real armor, or create intricate costumes that do the same thing. Every boffer LARP that I attended gave extra points for real armor. It's subjective and personal. Most of the people I knew back then didn't have a pot to piss in. Didn't stop them from spending THOUSANDS on armor. Then you get the people who just want to hangout. They show up in jeans and a "Goodwill" top.

[freiman]

Does she have a website?

Are we allowed to post commercial websites here?

That sounds a lot like spamming a board. I am pretty sure that would get me kicked and banned, and I like it here. There are good people here. This is pretty much a dickhead free environment.

She's not looking to boost sales, she just wants to get some advice about what the LARP market needs. Do plates need to be fastened down with heavy eighth inch rivets, or will speed rivets do? She feels (and rightly, I believe) that if she just produces a good product, that will probably be enough. She doesn't need to use somebody's discussion board as an adspace.

But, you guys know about LARP fighting. I don't feel bad about asking for advice here.

What makes very good LARP armor?

f

[Evandril]

If you come here, post innapropriate links to commercial sites on all the forums, and leave...Yep, you'd be kicked and banned. Posting an appropriate link (Geeba-type merch in the Geeba's area) to show people something cool/help a friend/ect, you're fine :) At worst, if you're a regular poster, one of the mods would nuke it, and tell you why.

If we're *asking* for the link, I'd say you're safe ;)

As far as fastening down the plates...You're dealing with quick movement, and the armor being 'pulled', more than damaged by impacts. If it's an area that would be stressed by movement, more secure fastening might be needed...but won't need it for impact-resistance, if that makes sense

[Wells]

Well... this post will probably be pretty much useless to you, but...

I come from the third world of combat, that of stage combat, where we choreograph everything we do so as not to hurt the other person. What this means is that we can put on a show using full steel weapons (though not sharpened) and our opponents won't have ANY armor on. Armor for our group is purely costuming, and if the armor lends itself to the costume and doesn't interfere with the choreography, by all means we would want to wear it.

[Ruestir]

Are we allowed to post commercial websites here?

That sounds a lot like spamming a board. I am pretty sure that would get me kicked and banned, and I like it here. There are good people here. This is pretty much a dickhead free environment.

She's not looking to boost sales, she just wants to get some advice about what the LARP market needs. Do plates need to be fastened down with heavy eighth inch rivets, or will speed rivets do? She feels (and rightly, I believe) that if she just produces a good product, that will probably be enough. She doesn't need to use somebody's discussion board as an adspace.

But, you guys know about LARP fighting. I don't feel bad about asking for advice here.

What makes very good LARP armor?

f
PM me the link then if you don't want to post it, but yeah I echo Evandril's sentiment. You're not doing it as a hit and run spam, you're posting it because we asked and it's related to the topic at hand. I think it would be safe.

[freiman]

I passed on a link to this thread to her. I think that she will show up here, and ask the specific questions.

I just don't know how to find a LARP combat training/ equipment board.

f

[Travellar]

1) Listen to Duncan.

2) There's nothing wrong with running around in real armor for a LARP. If she's more comfortable making real stuff, I think she'll do fine. A more expensive approach that should ensure her reputation no matter what, is to make several pieces, to cover real armor (16 oz, full rivits), and a set of costume armor(8 oz). From a quality stanpoint, if she's comforatbkle working with full rivits instead of speed rivits, I'd say to stick with the stuff that will last the next 200 years.

Depending on the game and chapter, the in game value of different pieces of armor may not even be affected by the actual quality of the physrep. In one of the playtests we're using, I can get as much 'protection' from heavy fabrics that look like leather as I can from actual thick, hardened leather. Other chapters or game systems take a different approach to this, and the actual armor is worth more. Keeping that in mind, you can't go wrong with real armor, beyond the price.

*edit*
can you post the link, or at least give us enough of a hint that we can find it ourselves? I'd really like to see what she has to offer.

[Evandril]

Not being a leatherworker, this is asked for information, not me being my normal smart-arsed self ;)

Would lighter or non-protective leather armor allow for more decorative sets? And is the reason to use the heavier rivets because of the weight/thickness of the leather, or because movement will pull out speed rivets?

[Sehson]

I passed on a link to this thread to her. I think that she will show up here, and ask the specific questions.

I just don't know how to find a LARP combat training/ equipment board.

f

The MOD says....

you can post her link, IF she comes and joins have her introduce herself with the link and blame you for it too...

That way it's less likely to get viewed as spam.

We don't mind links to retail sites if they are apropriate, on the old board and even this one we have links to corseters and other clothiers.

[Evandril]

See, you could have posted the link yourself, but you mentioned she was female...Now da Panda wants to pounce her *shakes head*

Any pouncing will be on your head! :p

[Sehson]

Hey I haven't pounced anyone...

huged, nibbled, licked and....

but never pounced :DP: :dp:

[Talen]

folks,

I have been asked by a buddy for help with some LARP armor. My buddy (a lady) is a master leather worker, and she can do a good job.

The problem is, this is for a LARP,, using foam weapons, and she is a full contact SCA armorer and fighter. She feels like her professional reputation and her future working with a large and lucrative market is at stake. She really wants to get this right. There are things that are so radically different from what she has done that she is worried.

For instance, LARP fighting is so incredibly fast that she is worried about using fastening techniques that wont work. She wants to produce a really, really good product for the customer. She makes her living on her rep, and she is worried that venturing into strange territory will hurt her rep.

For another, she is used to rebate and full contact rattan fighting that uses a minumum of 16 oz (quarter inch) leather, usually in thick, multiple layers, and the customer says that 8 ounce (eighth inch) will do fine. This is essentially garment leather.

Does the armor need to be wax or water hardened for a LARP? Is that important?

Where can we go for advice? Who can tell us what she needs to know? She's really good, but making a mistake because she doesn't know the rules might cost her big time.

Help me, Geebas Wan, you're my only hope.

f


Heh, you ran into the right place, and definitely this is one difference between SCAdian-type fighting and LARP combats.

LARPers aren't winding up for rattan home runs- they're hitting (usually 45 degree or less swings) with latex or boffer-style weapons. MUCH less energy being sent into the person, and hence the armor. Joint protection can be lighter, and thickness isn't as critical. Some protection is good- your fighter is more likely to be bouncing off things, falling down, etc...but remember they're also going to be doing stuff no SCAdian in their right mind would do in a combat- like running long distances, jumping down hills, and so on.

LARPers tend to wear their armor longer- like all day long. Comfort and weight are important, and heat is an enemy here too. "Breathing" armor is important. That's likely why her client is asking for 8 oz, as the thicker that armor gets, the more heat it's going to trap.

It doesn't -have- to be hardened for protection's sake, but a good fit is important and having floppy armor that falls off is no good and looks crappy, too.. Some pieces will simply stay on better that way. It may have to be put on quickly- SCAdians don't generally get woken up by a pack of orcs hammering on their cabin door, or an emergency call-to-arms when the big bad guy starts his destroy-the-world ritual at midnight. Strapping should be big, simply buckled, and easy to reach.

If at all possible, get the client to give your armorer friend a copy of the rules for the game as far as how armor and it's protection are simulated in their combat system. That'll go a LONG way towards making the work easier and the suit in question "better" for the person buying it. In the game I play, armor's protection increases from soft to hard leather, then studded, ring, mail, light and heavy plate- but that's one of the more complex ones.

Any questions, feel free to toss them up here. It'll be easier to answer given those armor rules.

[Sebastian K]

I think the most important thing about armour is fit. Weight is really secondary when the piece fits right. I also believe armour should have some real protective value. That comes with the ruleset we use. If you remember from AB9, there were some people wearing garment weight suede stuff that I had to go and tell "sorry, no points". Sometimes I will give a few pity or stylepoints, but I am usually very strict about the true protective value aspect.

For many LARPers it is mostly about the points they get though.

Just for comparisons sake, here is our armour system:

We have 6 armour zones: torso, left arm, right arm, left leg, right leg, head. The head is an armour zone that counts toward your global armour, but not a target zone.

You assign a point value to each zone. 2 for leather, 4 for maille, water hardened thick leather or splinted leather, 6 for scale or kingsmaille, 8 for plate. For a partially covered limb you get partial points. Armours can be upgraded or downgraded at least on category for good ar bad execution or materials. Ultralight materials are penalized by their weight advantage. Plastic or foam will yield you no points.

In the end, divide the points you get by 2 and round up. That is your global armour counter (it ponly counts where there is armour). The system yields armour values from 0 to 24 points. It undervalues the true fullplate, but it is very playable within our ruleset as you know.

Also, I need to talk to the lady in any case about getting her products over here. I think she does fine work, and she should keep true to her style. She will be fine in the LARPer market.

[sableagle]

Off-topic for creation, on-topic for the values tangent:

Do people distinguish between attack types for armour value?

Chain mail is very good against slashing attacks but has limited value against a narrow-pointed arrow or a stiletto dagger and almost none against a club, quarterstaff or head-sized boulder. Do systems take that into account?

[Sebastian K]

Off-topic for creation, on-topic for the values tangent:

Do people distinguish between attack types for armour value?

Chain mail is very good against slashing attacks but has limited value against a narrow-pointed arrow or a stiletto dagger and almost none against a club, quarterstaff or head-sized boulder. Do systems take that into account?

For reasons of playability we do not.

[sableagle]

How about Phantom Weapons (http://www.thejackcat.com/AC/Hobbies/Quests/Ravenous.htm)? :dgrin:Phantom weapons have a special property of Phantasmal. Phantasmal ignores all physical armor on the target.

[Draven]

I was wondering if there were any physical aspects that had certain protective requirements. However after reading the thread there appears there aren't any.
What do most LARPers generally look for in an armour?
~Draven

[sableagle]

*pounces the newbie*

Yay! First!

I think the first priority for many is being able to wear it all weekend, possibly including overnight. You also want to be able to move in it well enough to fight the guys wearing loincloths and green body-paint, and want it to be good eriod costume / stylish / shiny / whatever.

There are probably also rules about edges and spikes, as it wouldn't do to hae your shield and armour be more dangerous than your weapon's allowed to be.

[Talen]

I was wondering if there were any physical aspects that had certain protective requirements. However after reading the thread there appears there aren't any.
What do most LARPers generally look for in an armour?
~Draven

Support and comfort while still looking good. Heavy protection is, as a rule not needed. Avoiding too many protruding bits- boffer weapons that shred on impact with your gear is not a good thing.

LARPers can sacrifice thickness for lighter weight and flexibility just fine- and can even get away with cutaways that would leave parts exposed that shouldn't be in rattan-type combat. Generally, the worst thing they have to worry about is the occasional tree or rock as far as actual impacts are concerned, and even then it's accidental. But mobility is important. Many LARPers don't wear heavier armor simply because there's stuff you just have to get out of the way of, and if your armor slows you down too much, it'll be a nice visit to the healers to pick the death trap bits out of your teeth and buff off the fireball marks on what used to be your legs. :P

(Also, see the earlier posts in this topic.)

[Travellar]

For playability, armor is just armor. Granted, we can count up a different nmumber of points for how much armor we are wearing, but trying to distinguish between getting full protection against one attack, limited protection from another, and no protection from something else would take way too much mental work for the middle of combat. (heck, even keeping a simple count is hard sometimes!)

If you make actual armor, it should be just fine. Just no spikes or blades. As for mobility, since it was indicated that you specialize in leather, not plate, I doubt that will even matter much.